The J-Body Source : MultiGenSSBNeonRearDiscSwap

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Most recent edit on 2007-03-31 16:29:27 by ImCensored1 [Reformatted quotes]

Additions:

Here are some aftermarket brake parts numbers-
the following i got partnumbers for a 96 neon with 4 wheel disc brakes 
Calipers - C328 & C329 - Fenco 
Hoses - BH330329 & BH330330 - Raybestos 
Brake pads - MX759 - Wagner Thermoquiets 
Brake pads - ZX759 - Wagner Quickstop 
there were no listing for neon parking brake shoes however and a few other things but thats mostly what you would need 
then i got part numbers for a 1990 dodge shadow with 4 wheel disc brakes with solid rotors 
Calipers - same as neon 
hoses - H38604 - Dorman 
pads - MX415 - thermoquiets 
pads - ZX415 - Quickstop 
Park brake shoes - PAB643 - Thermoquiets 
Park brake shoes - Z643 - Quickstop 
solid non-vented rotors - wagner - BD61948 
solid non-vented rotors - satisfied - 52-61948 
the pads for a neon are a hell of a lot cheaper and if they use the same caliper and almost same diameter rotor they should work just fine and save you some coin. 
hopefully that helps your search for the right parts

I drew this up in ACAD to assist myself in getting the machining done. I thought that some of you guys would also want it.
{{image url="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/danielheath/Neon%20Disk%20Swap/NeonMachiningTemplate.jpg"}}

looks nice man, id love to do that, any difference in braking?

Any idea how much lighter that is than the drum setup?

I believe the 3rd part number would go from the bracket that holds the two cables in place to the ebrake handle. It is all mounted under the car on the neon, so I know it'll hold up to severe weather. 
Why did you choose to mount it all inside the car? Just curious! Looks pretty pimp though.

What diameter are the rotors, they look about the same as my fronts....   8) 
Well done, and an excellent writeup Cahill.  Also, this should me about the same thing to do on a beretta "tubular" axle right?
I may do this, but I won't worry about the E-brake though, don't need that junk.

Good Job Cahilj
I would probably recommend to have the old neon bearing holes filled somehow with weld or something steal for strength of the bracket... but thats my opinion. But we all know what everyone says about opinions...
They're just like assholes,... everybody has one.  :wink:

Hey Cahil, 
Why not just use the Neon spindle? I thought the lug pattern is the same?

James i have a question.
In your pics it doesnt look like the hub clears the rotor (looks like its about even with it)  Is this because you spaced the rotor away from the bearing?  Or is the rotor really that much thicker than the drum?  A concern of mine is keeping the hub exposed so the wheel can be properly seated.

A question for you dodge guys out there...does the PT Cruiser use the same rear brake setup as a Neon?  When I do a search on car-part.com for rear brake parts, I get results for the PT Cruiser also...  :-?

Could this setup work for a 3rd gen was the same rear setup for the drum brakes used for 88-03?

Do you still have to machine the big circle in the middle if you dont have ABS? I noticed the ABS sensor was in the middle, I dont have ABS andI dont think I need to machine the middle out, but its been a while since I've seen back there so I dont know.
Also whats the smallest rim that could fit on the rear with these rotors? I have 14's for the winter and I want to be sure they still fit, if not screw it I'm still doing it anyway cause it looks so cool, lol
I was going to look into this using rear discs from a shadow or something but just never got around to doing the research.

Do you think it would be possible to space the bearing away from the caliper bracket instead of just spacing the rotor out?  This would keep the hub the full .250" outside the rotor.

Just curious as to what the four bolts holding the bracket on the neon were? anything special, i was at a yard today and saw a neon with the setup and was curious what i would need to bring to remove them myself. it looks safe to say that those 4 bolts or whatever are all that hold the setup on the car is this correct?

Any pics of the ebrake set up behind the rotor? I'm curious as to how it is set up. 

 Hi James. Hi friends.
After a little research in my notes I found the info that I have been asking you; sorry I was lazy at the moment when I ask here in this thread. 
95-97 Neon rear disc's:
Rear Rotor: 270mm OD, 5x100mm bolt pattern
Rear Piston / Cylinder diameter: 34mm
Rear Lining: Bendix 7805
master Cylinder Bore: 22.2mm
98-99 Neon rear disc's:
Rear Rotor: 270mm OD, 5x100mm bolt pattern
Rear Piston / Cylinder diameter: 34mm
Rear Lining: BBA 2006
master Cylinder Bore: 22.2mm
{{image url="http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/423000-423999/423223_90_full.jpg"}}
According to my calculations (3rd gen J-bodies uses a 7/8” master cylinder, 7/8” wheel cylinders and 4 points / wheels ABS & proportioning system) stock j-body brakes will work really cute with stock Neon’s rear discs system. Check out this pages.
Jbodies stock brakes calculation:
{{image url="http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/423000-423999/423223_86_full.jpg"}}
{{image url="http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/423000-423999/423223_87_full.jpg"}}
Jbodies with neon rear disc brakes:
{{image url="http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/423000-423999/423223_88_full.jpg"}}
{{image url="http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/423000-423999/423223_89_full.jpg"}}
These worksheets are only a roughly estimation, with some % of error in the results, but good enough to make you an idea how the stuff will work.
I hope that info help you.

~&One question....   will 95 - 05 drilled rotors fit?  Do I have to get a set for dodge neon only?
~~~&Ah interesting...   thanks for the input!   I hope the rear rotors from Neon isnt a big difference on the looks.  But  its gonna look better than the drums!

So you are saying that the center hole is just opened up, and is still centered on the bracket (compared to the original hole), and the four other holes are then added in at a precise location (determined by the J-body axle). What we are really locating off of is the center hole then. Am I getting this right?

The four other holes are set so that the caliper is riding "level" to the ground (the same distance from the ground on both sides), correct?

So, when doing this, I may have to do the center hole to the J's specs, then position the mount on my axle so it's set "level" to get my other hole locations. 

 just curious as what your reason for spacing it out was? did it rub on something? I havnt messed with it much yet since Ive just been working on getting the other side on which it is, but the rotor spins free.
Is it something simple i just havnt noticed yet that is the reason it needs spaced?

 ok can we somehow get 2 types of walkthroughs here one for gen 2 and one for gen 3...

 As far as a walk through for 3rd gens there really isnt anything different then the 2nd gen except for maybe the ebrake but I havnt gone into that yet and I just plan to you the stock J cables Im sure I can make them work with the Neon Ebrake

 is there anything you didnt do for the 3rd generation or was there any extra stuff you had to do?

 Not a thing was different save for the fact that I just wiggled the stock J line into place on the caliper and used a threading adapter to thread it into the Caliper instead of going through the trouble of new brake lines, although thats not a bad idea for me was just a cost I didnt see as neccesary mostly cause it was still the metal line.

I got a couple of questions now that it's been done on the 2nd and 3rd gen.
1. Do you guys use an adapter and use the j-body brake line or the neon one?

2. Is the spacer absolutely necessary?  If so how thick does it have to be?

~&3. Just to make sure:
~&Thanks

 Does anyone know if the neon rear disk setup and the intrepids are the same? I can't find any neons with the rear disks, but there are plenty of intrepids around here where I live.

Also, the j-body uses the Torx-55 to hold the hub on, what's on the Neon so I'm prepared for it?

the suspension setup on the 2gens are different no?

 i cant find any blasted neon sports around here is there anything else? ive found plenty of regular neons but no sports.

And another thing does it matter if the donor Neon has 
ABS or not?

Hey,  Update on the brake drag. I grabbed some pressure gauges and found we do indeed have 10psi residual valves in our Gen 3's , don't know about Gen 2's tho. I went to some local speed shops and they said just like (Pushrods & Nitrous!), 2psi for disc and 10psi for drum. Anyway, I found those damn residual pressure valves......there hiding along the hard bend line just below the drivers side rear bench seat. The interesting thing about this is even if you change the MC you will still have the 10psi in the back since this valve has nothing to do with MC. I've been doing alot of sleuthing around asking questions at speed shops around here and they all said the residual valves can't be run in the MC. Actualy, many cars don't have residual pressure valves and there are only needed for performance brake applications to keep the fluid from rushing back to the MC during decompression.....so I was surprized when I found them on my cavi. I installed the neon calipers and brought them up to pressure while off the car...( a piece of wood substituted for the pads and rotor)....when I let off the brake and removed the wood, much to my surprize the caliper piston was sliding out surprizingly fast. Almost too much to hold back by hand...proved that without replacing the valves, brake drag would be certain. Not much given the emense pressure required to stop, but drag none-the-less.
Cahill....check for the valves

Hello,
OK....I got all the info and pics. This weekend I even got the ebrake hardware on the 3rd gen using stock cables.
Start from the top:
Heres the pic of the stock RPV(residual pressure valves):
{{image url="http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/residualpressurevalves.jpg"}}
I used 2 psi Wilwood valves, part number: 260-1874
{{image url="http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/wilwoodresidualpresurevalve.jpg"}}
You can see from the pic that it has fittings on both ends. This fitting is a #3 flare to 1/8" NPT adapter and is an XRP part number 981603. {{image url="http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp981603.jpg"}}
The straight end fits goes into the RPV(pipe thread) and the flare end is the brake line thread.
Now you have a RPV with standard Male brake line fittings on both ends. Only one problem.....the cars original RPVs are female fittings. Now many of you are thinking why didn't I just search XRP's site and find a 1/8" NPT to Female #3AN fitting. Although this might exist....the stock RPVs have two different size male fittings on both sides of the brake line. The upstream is probably 7/16" and the downstream is 5/16 I do believe. I found it easier to cut the original fittings off and buy a pipe flaring tool from Harbor Freight Tools....my favorite store!!!
[[http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=40878 Flaring tool]]
This kit also comes with a pipe cutter that works great that isn't shown in the kit.
Once you have the original fittings cut each side, next you side on the brake line XRP's part number 981803 (#3AN female nut):
{{image url="http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp981803.jpg"}}
Now slide onto the brake line XRP part number 981903 (Nut sleeve)
{{image url="http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp981903.jpg"}}
This nut sleeve will snug up to the end of the brake line once the end of it is flared. Then the female nut will slide back to the end and get caught on the ridge of the nut sleeve. Now you should have the assembled brake line with the RPV installed like the picture seen earlier above: 
{{image url="http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/wilwoodresidualpresurevalve.jpg"}}
Now this assembly is a little shorter than the stock valves however you can pull some slack from the rear end to make up the difference pretty easily. I went on step further and just replaced the line all the back from the RPVs.
Heres some pics of the valves installed:
{{image url="http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/wilwoodpressurevalvesinstalled2.jpg"}}
{{image url="http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/wilwoodpressurevalvesinstalled.jpg"}}
All those wet spots are brake fluid in case anyone is wondering why I roll with a leaking fuel tank.  
I will continue this post to include all the brake line mods....as if this post isn't long yet.
Heres a pic of the full assembled brake line before I installed it. 
{{image url="http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/brakelinerightside2.jpg"}}
I installed a piece of crapy line on the other end of the RPV...ignore this...that line is just a representation of the stock line that I will bolt the RPV too.
Also....on that note...I would like to say...don’t be afraid to practice with the pipe flange tool...you aren't crimping the fittings onto the line, just sliding them on and the bolts holds everything tight. So you can practice seating the nut sleeves and nuts on the brake line all you want without consuming the fittings.
O.K., In this picture you can see in the top right my coil of brake line. Then to the left is the tube cutter and flaring tool stuff. Also there is my pipe bender to the right of the flaring tool stuff. Below that is the caliper that once looked clean and bright red.
Now on the caliper I used a 7/16" nut to #3AN Male flare nut, XRP part number 402833
{{image url="http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp402833.jpg"}}
This allows the stainless steel braided brake line to be installed, XPR part number 630036
{{image url="http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp630036.jpg"}}
I used 36" flexible lines to replace the brake line all the way from the start of the stock rubber flex line into the caliper. 30" would be more appropriate but whatever.
Next on the other end of the flex hose you see a union flare nut, XRP Part number 981503
{{image url="http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp981503.jpg"}}
Then from here I used another nut sleeve and flare nut.
Here's the BOM for the whole brake line job, both sides:
All XRP parts.
(6) 981803
(6) 981903
(4) 981603
(2) 981503
(2) 630036
(2) 402833
(2) Wilwood 2psi RPVs PN: 260-1874
P.S. All of these pics I found online from a site and they look like they have been squished. So when you find the parts in your hand don't think they aren't right just cause they don't look exactly the same.
I will post later about the brake job on the gen3. This post is long enough.

this is some fascinating info on those RPV's. I've never heard of them before.
James and other non gay, I mean non 3rd gen owners... (much love guys heh)... Are our RPV's perhaps built into the master cylinder?
I know that a 3rd gen master cylinder with ABS is comparable to ours, but, is it the EXACT SAME master cylinder? Is it possible our years have this RPV funciton in the master, and in the 3rd gen they made them external?
Curiosity has me here..

RPV's are totally optional on disc or drum brakes...many production cars won't have them. There basically just a brake fluid stop for the brake lines, this ensures the caliper remains close to the pads at all times and creates a more consistent brake pedal feel for the driver whenever they're applied. Basically reduces the chances of ever a spongy pedal feel on first applying them. I've done a little research on RPVs and MCs or more to the point RPVs inside MCs and I have found a somewhat good reason to believe that just by visual inspection you can tell if you have them. 
Heres an image of a 71 super beetle's MC, you see the brake line going into the larger bolt type thing. That is a RPV, I wouldn't imagine to find RPVs inside the actual MC.
But you can always try my 2x4 piece of wood stuck in the caliper trick as I explained earlier in the thread.
{{image url="http://vwtrendsweb.com/tech/0311vwt_projvw02_z.jpg"}}
Heres a quote off of Wilwood's RPV package:
A residual pressure valve is used when a master cylinder is mounted equal to or below the horizontal plane of the calipers or drum brake wheel cylinders. This valve prevents fluid flow-back to the master cylinder reservoir which can cause excessive brake travel or "pumping" of the pedal to engage brakes.



Edited on 2007-03-31 12:26:36 by ImCensored1 [Fixed the quotes formatting]

Additions:
This how-to was compiled by James Cahill
Hey everyone. Sorry to bring this back, but I thought that since I work at Chrysler I would post the dealer pricing for the parts needed for the swap. All prices are in CDN, and they may or may not be the same depending on where you go. And yes, most of the prices are rediculus.
04509637 (LEVER ASSEMBLY, p/brake) - **$108.00**

Here are some aftermarket brake parts numbers-
hopefully that helps your search for the right parts

You will need to figure out the brake plumbing. This is entirely up to you. Some info- the Neon uses a 7/16” banjo bolt, so your options are pretty open. I used these∞ braided lines and these∞ banjo fittings. At the unibody side, I used this∞ adapter to get back to hard bent. 
I drew this up in ACAD to assist myself in getting the machining done. I thought that some of you guys would also want it.
{{image url="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/danielheath/Neon%20Disk%20Swap/NeonMachiningTemplate.jpg"}}

looks nice man, id love to do that, any difference in braking?

Any idea how much lighter that is than the drum setup?

I believe the 3rd part number would go from the bracket that holds the two cables in place to the ebrake handle. It is all mounted under the car on the neon, so I know it'll hold up to severe weather. 
Why did you choose to mount it all inside the car? Just curious! Looks pretty pimp though.

What diameter are the rotors, they look about the same as my fronts....   8) 
I may do this, but I won't worry about the E-brake though, don't need that junk.

Good Job Cahilj
They're just like assholes,... everybody has one.  :wink:

Hey Cahil, 
Why not just use the Neon spindle? I thought the lug pattern is the same?

James i have a question.
In your pics it doesnt look like the hub clears the rotor (looks like its about even with it)  Is this because you spaced the rotor away from the bearing?  Or is the rotor really that much thicker than the drum?  A concern of mine is keeping the hub exposed so the wheel can be properly seated.

A question for you dodge guys out there...does the PT Cruiser use the same rear brake setup as a Neon?  When I do a search on car-part.com for rear brake parts, I get results for the PT Cruiser also...  :-?

Could this setup work for a 3rd gen was the same rear setup for the drum brakes used for 88-03?

Do you still have to machine the big circle in the middle if you dont have ABS? I noticed the ABS sensor was in the middle, I dont have ABS andI dont think I need to machine the middle out, but its been a while since I've seen back there so I dont know.
I was going to look into this using rear discs from a shadow or something but just never got around to doing the research.

Do you think it would be possible to space the bearing away from the caliper bracket instead of just spacing the rotor out?  This would keep the hub the full .250" outside the rotor.

Just curious as to what the four bolts holding the bracket on the neon were? anything special, i was at a yard today and saw a neon with the setup and was curious what i would need to bring to remove them myself. it looks safe to say that those 4 bolts or whatever are all that hold the setup on the car is this correct?

Any pics of the ebrake set up behind the rotor? I'm curious as to how it is set up. 

 Hi James. Hi friends.
I hope that info help you.

~&One question....   will 95 - 05 drilled rotors fit?  Do I have to get a set for dodge neon only?
~~&I assume you are talking about Cavy rotors??  No they wont work.  The neon rear disks have a drum inside them for the Ebrake.
~~~&Ah interesting...   thanks for the input!   I hope the rear rotors from Neon isnt a big difference on the looks.  But  its gonna look better than the drums!

So you are saying that the center hole is just opened up, and is still centered on the bracket (compared to the original hole), and the four other holes are then added in at a precise location (determined by the J-body axle). What we are really locating off of is the center hole then. Am I getting this right?

The four other holes are set so that the caliper is riding "level" to the ground (the same distance from the ground on both sides), correct?

I think I understand what you're asking. You're asking if the two horizontal centerlines (the top hole and the bottom holes) need to be parallel to the ground right? No. Not necessarily. Mine were actually a bit off since the part of the bracket casting where the park brake cable sticks out would have hit the top of the bearing flange on the axle. He did the center hole, then set the bracket on the axle where it would clear the top of the flange, and marked the four holes. As long as the center hole is centered, you can rotate the bracket in any direction however far you want and the rotor will still be centered.
So, when doing this, I may have to do the center hole to the J's specs, then position the mount on my axle so it's set "level" to get my other hole locations. 

 just curious as what your reason for spacing it out was? did it rub on something? I havnt messed with it much yet since Ive just been working on getting the other side on which it is, but the rotor spins free.
Is it something simple i just havnt noticed yet that is the reason it needs spaced?

 ok can we somehow get 2 types of walkthroughs here one for gen 2 and one for gen 3...

 As far as a walk through for 3rd gens there really isnt anything different then the 2nd gen except for maybe the ebrake but I havnt gone into that yet and I just plan to you the stock J cables Im sure I can make them work with the Neon Ebrake

 is there anything you didnt do for the 3rd generation or was there any extra stuff you had to do?

 Not a thing was different save for the fact that I just wiggled the stock J line into place on the caliper and used a threading adapter to thread it into the Caliper instead of going through the trouble of new brake lines, although thats not a bad idea for me was just a cost I didnt see as neccesary mostly cause it was still the metal line.

I got a couple of questions now that it's been done on the 2nd and 3rd gen.
1. Do you guys use an adapter and use the j-body brake line or the neon one?

2. Is the spacer absolutely necessary?  If so how thick does it have to be?

~&3. Just to make sure:
~~&The centerline of the existing Neon large hole and centerline of the large Cavalier hole NEED to be the same
~&
~&Thanks

 Does anyone know if the neon rear disk setup and the intrepids are the same? I can't find any neons with the rear disks, but there are plenty of intrepids around here where I live.

Also, the j-body uses the Torx-55 to hold the hub on, what's on the Neon so I'm prepared for it?

the suspension setup on the 2gens are different no?

 i cant find any blasted neon sports around here is there anything else? ive found plenty of regular neons but no sports.

And another thing does it matter if the donor Neon has 
ABS or not?

Hey,  Update on the brake drag. I grabbed some pressure gauges and found we do indeed have 10psi residual valves in our Gen 3's , don't know about Gen 2's tho. I went to some local speed shops and they said just like (Pushrods & Nitrous!), 2psi for disc and 10psi for drum. Anyway, I found those damn residual pressure valves......there hiding along the hard bend line just below the drivers side rear bench seat. The interesting thing about this is even if you change the MC you will still have the 10psi in the back since this valve has nothing to do with MC. I've been doing alot of sleuthing around asking questions at speed shops around here and they all said the residual valves can't be run in the MC. Actualy, many cars don't have residual pressure valves and there are only needed for performance brake applications to keep the fluid from rushing back to the MC during decompression.....so I was surprized when I found them on my cavi. I installed the neon calipers and brought them up to pressure while off the car...( a piece of wood substituted for the pads and rotor)....when I let off the brake and removed the wood, much to my surprize the caliper piston was sliding out surprizingly fast. Almost too much to hold back by hand...proved that without replacing the valves, brake drag would be certain. Not much given the emense pressure required to stop, but drag none-the-less.
Cahill....check for the valves

Hello,
I will post later about the brake job on the gen3. This post is long enough.

this is some fascinating info on those RPV's. I've never heard of them before.
Curiosity has me here..

RPV's are totally optional on disc or drum brakes...many production cars won't have them. There basically just a brake fluid stop for the brake lines, this ensures the caliper remains close to the pads at all times and creates a more consistent brake pedal feel for the driver whenever they're applied. Basically reduces the chances of ever a spongy pedal feel on first applying them. I've done a little research on RPVs and MCs or more to the point RPVs inside MCs and I have found a somewhat good reason to believe that just by visual inspection you can tell if you have them. 
A residual pressure valve is used when a master cylinder is mounted equal to or below the horizontal plane of the calipers or drum brake wheel cylinders. This valve prevents fluid flow-back to the master cylinder reservoir which can cause excessive brake travel or "pumping" of the pedal to engage brakes.


Deletions:
[quote]Hey everyone. Sorry to bring this back, but I thought that since I work at Chrysler I would post the dealer pricing for the parts needed for the swap. All prices are in CDN, and they may or may not be the same depending on where you go. And yes, most of the prices are rediculus.
04509637 (LEVER ASSEMBLY, p/brake) - $108.00[/quote]
[quote]Here are some aftermarket brake parts numbers-
hopefully that helps your search for the right parts[/quote]
You will need to figure out the brake plumbing. This is entirely up to you. Some info- the Neon uses a 7/16” banjo bolt, so your options are pretty open. I used [url=http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/ProductSelection.asp?Product=3]these[/url∞] braided lines and [url=http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/ProductDetails.asp?RecId=4197]these[/url∞] banjo fittings. At the unibody side, I used [url=http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/ProductDetails.asp?RecId=2915]this[/url∞] adapter to get back to hard bent.
[quote]I drew this up in ACAD to assist myself in getting the machining done. I thought that some of you guys would also want it.
image[/quote]
[quote]looks nice man, id love to do that, any difference in braking?[/quote]
[quote]Any idea how much lighter that is than the drum setup?[/quote]
[quote]I believe the 3rd part number would go from the bracket that holds the two cables in place to the ebrake handle. It is all mounted under the car on the neon, so I know it'll hold up to severe weather.
Why did you choose to mount it all inside the car? Just curious! Looks pretty pimp though.[/quote]
[quote]What diameter are the rotors, they look about the same as my fronts.... 8)
I may do this, but I won't worry about the E-brake though, don't need that junk.[/quote]
[quote]Good Job Cahilj
They're just like assholes,... everybody has one. :wink:[/quote]
[quote]Hey Cahil,
Why not just use the Neon spindle? I thought the lug pattern is the same?[/quote]
[quote]James i have a question.
In your pics it doesnt look like the hub clears the rotor (looks like its about even with it) Is this because you spaced the rotor away from the bearing? Or is the rotor really that much thicker than the drum? A concern of mine is keeping the hub exposed so the wheel can be properly seated.[/quote]
[quote]A question for you dodge guys out there...does the PT Cruiser use the same rear brake setup as a Neon? When I do a search on car-part.com for rear brake parts, I get results for the PT Cruiser also... :-?[/quote]
[quote]Could this setup work for a 3rd gen was the same rear setup for the drum brakes used for 88-03?[/quote]
[quote]Do you still have to machine the big circle in the middle if you dont have ABS? I noticed the ABS sensor was in the middle, I dont have ABS andI dont think I need to machine the middle out, but its been a while since I've seen back there so I dont know.
I was going to look into this using rear discs from a shadow or something but just never got around to doing the research.[/quote]
[quote]Do you think it would be possible to space the bearing away from the caliper bracket instead of just spacing the rotor out? This would keep the hub the full .250" outside the rotor.[/quote]
[quote]Just curious as to what the four bolts holding the bracket on the neon were? anything special, i was at a yard today and saw a neon with the setup and was curious what i would need to bring to remove them myself. it looks safe to say that those 4 bolts or whatever are all that hold the setup on the car is this correct? [/quote]
[quote]Any pics of the ebrake set up behind the rotor? I'm curious as to how it is set up. [/quote]
[quote] Hi James. Hi friends.
I hope that info help you.[/quote]
[quote]
[quote]
[quote]One question.... will 95 - 05 drilled rotors fit? Do I have to get a set for dodge neon only?[/quote]
I assume you are talking about Cavy rotors?? No they wont work. The neon rear disks have a drum inside them for the Ebrake.[/quote]
Ah interesting... thanks for the input! I hope the rear rotors from Neon isnt a big difference on the looks. But its gonna look better than the drums![/quote]
[quote]So you are saying that the center hole is just opened up, and is still centered on the bracket (compared to the original hole), and the four other holes are then added in at a precise location (determined by the J-body axle). What we are really locating off of is the center hole then. Am I getting this right?[/quote]
[quote]The four other holes are set so that the caliper is riding "level" to the ground (the same distance from the ground on both sides), correct?[/quote]
I think I understand what you're asking. You're asking if the two horizontal centerlines (the top hole and the bottom holes) need to be parallel to the ground right? No. Not necessarily. Mine were actually a bit off since the part of the bracket casting where the park brake cable sticks out would have hit the top of the bearing flange on the axle. He did the center hole, then set the brakcet on the axle where it would clear the top of the flange, and marked the four holes. As long as the center hole is centered, you can rotate the bracket in any direction however far you want and the rotor will still be centered.
[quote]So, when doing this, I may have to do the center hole to the J's specs, then position the mount on my axle so it's set "level" to get my other hole locations. [/quote]
[quote] just curious as what your reason for spacing it out was? did it rub on something? I havnt messed with it much yet since Ive just been working on getting the other side on which it is, but the rotor spins free.
Is it something simple i just havnt noticed yet that is the reason it needs spaced?[/quote]
[quote] ok can we somehow get 2 types of walkthroughs here one for gen 2 and one for gen 3...[/quote]
[quote] As far as a walk through for 3rd gens there really isnt anything different then the 2nd gen except for maybe the ebrake but I havnt gone into that yet and I just plan to you the stock J cables Im sure I can make them work with the Neon Ebrake[/quote]
[quote] is there anything you didnt do for the 3rd generation or was there any extra stuff you had to do?[/quote]
[quote] Not a thing was different save for the fact that I just wiggled the stock J line into place on the caliper and used a threading adapter to thread it into the Caliper instead of going through the trouble of new brake lines, although thats not a bad idea for me was just a cost I didnt see as neccesary mostly cause it was still the metal line.[/quote]
[quote]I got a couple of questions now that it's been done on the 2nd and 3rd gen.
1. Do you guys use an adapter and use the j-body brake line or the neon one?[/quote]
[quote]2. Is the spacer absolutely necessary? If so how thick does it have to be?[/quote]
[quote]3. Just to make sure:
[QUOTe]The centerline of the existing Neon large hole and centerline of the large Cavalier hole NEED to be the same[/quote]
Thanks[/quote]
[quote] Does anyone know if the neon rear disk setup and the intrepids are the same? I can't find any neons with the rear disks, but there are plenty of intrepids around here where I live.[/quote]
[quote]Also, the j-body uses the Torx-55 to hold the hub on, what's on the Neon so I'm prepared for it?[/quote]
[quote]the suspension setup on the 2gens are different no?[/quote]
[quote] i cant find any blasted neon sports around here is there anything else? ive found plenty of regular neons but no sports.[/quote]
[quote]And another thing does it matter if the donor Neon has
ABS or not?[/quote]
[quote]Hey, Update on the brake drag. I grabbed some pressure gauges and found we do indeed have 10psi residual valves in our Gen 3's , don't know about Gen 2's tho. I went to some local speed shops and they said just like (Pushrods & Nitrous!), 2psi for disc and 10psi for drum. Anyway, I found those damn residual pressure valves......there hiding along the hard bend line just below the drivers side rear bench seat. The interesting thing about this is even if you change the MC you will still have the 10psi in the back since this valve has nothing to do with MC. I've been doing alot of sleuthing around asking questions at speed shops around here and they all said the residual valves can't be run in the MC. Actualy, many cars don't have residual pressure valves and there are only needed for performance brake applications to keep the fluid from rushing back to the MC during decompression.....so I was surprized when I found them on my cavi. I installed the neon calipers and brought them up to pressure while off the car...( a piece of wood substituted for the pads and rotor)....when I let off the brake and removed the wood, much to my surprize the caliper piston was sliding out surprizingly fast. Almost too much to hold back by hand...proved that without replacing the valves, brake drag would be certain. Not much given the emense pressure required to stop, but drag none-the-less.
Cahill....check for the valves[/quote]
[quote]Hello,
I will post later about the brake job on the gen3. This post is long enough.[/quote]
[quote]this is some fascinating info on those RPV's. I've never heard of them before.
Curiosity has me here..[/quote]
[quote]RPV's are totally optional on disc or drum brakes...many production cars won't have them. There basically just a brake fluid stop for the brake lines, this ensures the caliper remains close to the pads at all times and creates a more consistent brake pedal feel for the driver whenever they're applied. Basically reduces the chances of ever a spongy pedal feel on first applying them. I've done a little research on RPVs and MCs or more to the point RPVs inside MCs and I have found a somewhat good reason to believe that just by visual inspection you can tell if you have them.
A residual pressure valve is used when a master cylinder is mounted equal to or below the horizontal plane of the calipers or drum brake wheel cylinders. This valve prevents fluid flow-back to the master cylinder reservoir which can cause excessive brake travel or "pumping" of the pedal to engage brakes.[/quote]


Edited on 2007-03-31 11:17:10 by ImCensored1 [images inserted]

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You can see from the pic that it has fittings on both ends. This fitting is a #3 flare to 1/8" NPT adapter and is an XRP part number 981603. image
Flaring tool∞
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Deletions:
<img src="http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/neon1.jpg∞>
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/neon.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0012_2.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0013_2.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/ebrake2.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0022_2.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/ebrake4.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/rear.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0028.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0030.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0029.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0052.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0053.jpg[/img∞]
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[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0014_4.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/56540e21.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/danielheath/Neon%20Disk%20Swap/NeonMachiningTemplate.jpg[/img][/quote∞]
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0104_2.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/423000-423999/423223_90_full.jpg[/img∞]
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[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/axlegrind.jpg[/IMG∞]
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/bracket.jpg[/IMG∞]
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/reardiscclean.jpg[/IMG∞]
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/residualpressurevalves.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/wilwoodresidualpresurevalve.jpg[/img∞]
You can see from the pic that it has fittings on both ends. This fitting is a #3 flare to 1/8" NPT adapter and is an XRP part number 981603. [img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp981603.jpg[/img∞]
[url=http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=40878]Flaring∞ tool[/url]
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp981803.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp981903.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/wilwoodresidualpresurevalve.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/wilwoodpressurevalvesinstalled2.jpg[/img∞]
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[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/brakelinerightside2.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp402833.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp630036.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp981503.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://vwtrendsweb.com/tech/0311vwt_projvw02_z.jpg[/img∞]


Oldest known version of this page was edited on 2007-03-31 02:54:06 by ImCensored1 [Creation But needs work]
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This is compiled from 3 different threads on 2 different boards. I tried to get all the Q&A in here. Everything in quotes is either a question or has been contributed by someone other than me.

This is a semi How-To for swapping Dodge Neon rear discs (using the factory J bearing) onto your car. This doesn’t require welding, however it does require a machine shop or access to a milling machine. I would give this 4/5 wrenches. Its not basic stuff, and it does require fabrication skills. I spent about $350 when all was said and done (all the parts except the cables came from the yard). I used Brembo rotors and Hawk HPS pads, but there are literally hundreds of pad/rotor combos out there. Since it retains the factory J bearing, you can keep your ABS if you want. My biggest disclaimer is about the proportioning. I have no idea if this will work with the factory master cylinder. I am using a bigger Bonneville unit with externally adjustable proportioning. All I can say is once someone tries it, please let everyone else know if it works, or what you needed to do to make it work.

I used the brake setup from a 1996 Neon Sport-
<img src="http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/neon1.jpg∞>

[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/neon.jpg[/img∞]

Needed parts
The setup is the same from 95-02, so any year should work. To do what I did, you will need-

caliper bracket
caliper
backing plate/dust shield
rotor
ALL internal park brake hardware
balancer for park brake cables (inside car)
new park brake cables
new brake lines to go from hard bent to caliper

Prices
[quote]Hey everyone. Sorry to bring this back, but I thought that since I work at Chrysler I would post the dealer pricing for the parts needed for the swap. All prices are in CDN, and they may or may not be the same depending on where you go. And yes, most of the prices are rediculus.

I will also post this in the how-to discussion incase anyone looks there... I put it here for people that are searching for prices.

04509504 (SOCKET, rear wheel p/brake adj screw) - $21.00
04383541 (SPRING, p/brake shoe retainer upper) - $5.35
04383542 (SPRING, p/brake shoe retainer lower) - $5.70
04383543 (CLIP, p/brake shoe hold down) - $5.70

There are 4 numbers for the shoes.
04741772AA (factory) - $79.25
V2013036 - $60.95
BHKP7300 - $32.10
BHKP7301 - $32.10

04383539 (NUT , p/brake adj) - $22.60

There are 4 different bracket (called adapter) numbers.
04762684 (ADAPTER, rear wheel disc brake with sensor mount) - $100.00
04762685 (ADAPTER, rear wheel disc brake with sensor mount) - $96.00
04762686 (ADAPTER, rear wheel disc brake with sensor mount) - $94.40
04762687 (ADAPTER, rear wheel disc brake with sensor mount) - $94.40

04238733 (PIN, rear wheel brake shoe hold down) - $2.60
04238721 (PLUG, rear wheel brake adj hole) - $3.55

Two numbers for the park brake lever.
04728112 (LEVER and LINK ASSEMBLY, p/brake rear wheel) - $23.15
04728113 (LEVER and LINK ASSEMBLY, p/brake rear wheel) - $23.15

04509503 (SCREW, rear wheel p/brake adj) - $17.75

Two for the backing plate/shield.
04728110 (SHIELD, rear wheel disc brake) - $123.00
04628111 (SHIELD, rear wheel disc brake) - $123.00

04723981 (SCREW and WASHER, shield to adapter) - $4.90

Three different cable numbers.
04509633 (CABLE ASSEMBLY, p/brake rear, w/or w/o ABS) - $40.35
05273636* (CABLE ASSEMBLY, p/brake rear, w/or w/o ABS) - $46.60
04446981 (CABLE ASSEMBLY, p/brake rear, w/or w/o ABS) - $10.65

Balancer/equalizer piece.
04509637 (LEVER ASSEMBLY, p/brake) - $108.00[/quote]

[quote]Here are some aftermarket brake parts numbers-
the following i got partnumbers for a 96 neon with 4 wheel disc brakes

Calipers - C328 & C329 - Fenco
Hoses - BH330329 & BH330330 - Raybestos
Brake pads - MX759 - Wagner Thermoquiets
Brake pads - ZX759 - Wagner Quickstop

there were no listing for neon parking brake shoes however and a few other things but thats mostly what you would need

then i got part numbers for a 1990 dodge shadow with 4 wheel disc brakes with solid rotors

Calipers - same as neon
hoses - H38604 - Dorman
pads - MX415 - thermoquiets
pads - ZX415 - Quickstop
Park brake shoes - PAB643 - Thermoquiets
Park brake shoes - Z643 - Quickstop
solid non-vented rotors - wagner - BD61948
solid non-vented rotors - satisfied - 52-61948

the pads for a neon are a hell of a lot cheaper and if they use the same caliper and almost same diameter rotor they should work just fine and save you some coin.

hopefully that helps your search for the right parts[/quote]



To start, remove all the J body hardware (drum, shoes, bearing, backing plate, park brake cables, etc). (There has already been talk of using the factory J park brake cables with the Neon caliper brackets. I have no idea if this will work, so please don’t ask. Try it and find out.)

Plumbing
You will need to figure out the brake plumbing. This is entirely up to you. Some info- the Neon uses a 7/16” banjo bolt, so your options are pretty open. I used [url=http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/ProductSelection.asp?Product=3]these[/url∞] braided lines and [url=http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/ProductDetails.asp?RecId=4197]these[/url∞] banjo fittings. At the unibody side, I used [url=http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/ProductDetails.asp?RecId=2915]this[/url∞] adapter to get back to hard bent.

Some other options-
use the Neon hose and adapter from the salvage yard
install the adapter I used on the axle and use a shorter braided line
or, something entirely different, the options are pretty unlimited here

Park brake cables
You will need to run the park brake cables. I purchased new cables from Mopar. They are part #05273636 (2 req’d). There are 3 different cables available, I’m guessing for the sedan and coupe variants, but I’m not positive. The cables I used were the perfect length for 2nd gens. As I mentioned earlier, there is one other swap I know of using another Chrysler disc setup with the 2nd gen J cables (88ragtop).

This is the Neon cable-
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0012_2.jpg[/img∞]

I drilled a 1” hole for the cable grommet to go into-
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0013_2.jpg[/img∞]

The grommet does move on the cable, and there is a little clamp holding it in place. It was in the perfect spot and I didn’t have to move it for my car.

This is the balancer from the Neon. It is not available from the dealer without buying the entire park brake handle, so get it at the yard-
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/ebrake2.jpg[/img∞]

You will need to build a bracket to hold the cable ends. I used ½” steel angle-
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0022_2.jpg[/img∞]

I had to shorten the arm on the Cavalier lever to take up the slack since I couldn’t move the bracket any farther to the rear-
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/ebrake4.jpg[/img∞]


Caliper brackets
You need to have the Neon caliper brackets machined. This can be done at home, provided you take your time and make sure the center hole is dead on. I had it done at a machine shop for $60.

These are the Neon caliper brackets before machining-
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/rear.jpg[/img∞]

You will need to have the center hole reamed out and the four bearing bolt holes drilled, as well as some clearance cuts made. This is what it should look like after machining-
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0028.jpg[/img∞]

Assembly
Assembling this is not much more difficult than replacing the wheel bearing. The factory bearing bolts can be used with no issues. It’s a tiny bit more difficult to get them in with the park brake shoes on, but they fit. Once you’ve got the bearing bolted up, you need to figure out a way to shim the rotor out so it doesn’t rub on the backing plate/dust shield. I used a 1/16” thick washer on each stud until I get some plates made to fit. I thought about this problem for awhile. You could space the bearing away from the caliper bracket, but that would leave even less thread on the bearing bolts. It is only about 1/16”, so I’ll leave the decision up to you, but the rotor DOES need to come away from the plate, or it will drag.

Finished

Heres some shots of the finished assembly-
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0030.jpg[/img∞]

[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0029.jpg[/img∞]

[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0052.jpg[/img∞]

[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0053.jpg[/img∞]

I think the best thing about this is that all the wear and tear items can be directly replaced (rotor, caliper, pads, bearing) with factory or aftermarket parts.

Here are some dimensions for the machine work/drilling (I did these with my trusty digital calipers, and they are just rough dimensions to +/- .001", but as long as the center hole is good, the other holes can be filed to fit) (sorry about the blurriness, I'm not too swift with PS, and I had to call my tech support person just to get this far)-

These are the dimensions for the holes-
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0014_3.jpg[/img∞]

And for the milling/grinding (the horizontal dimensions are centered on the center hole, the vertical is .270" above the top of the center hole, sorry I forgot to put that one in)-
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0014_4.jpg[/img∞]

In this picture, you can see the washers I used to space the rotor out, as well as my cut down dust shield/backing plate and where the rotor was rubbing (which is why it needs to be spaced)-
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/56540e21.jpg[/img∞]

I would say- if you're going to print these out and bring them to someone, also print out the pic in the first post that shows the brackets already machined, that way, whoever it is can see what the finished product has to look like.

[quote]I drew this up in ACAD to assist myself in getting the machining done. I thought that some of you guys would also want it.

[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/danielheath/Neon%20Disk%20Swap/NeonMachiningTemplate.jpg[/img][/quote∞]

Now on to the Q&A

[quote]looks nice man, id love to do that, any difference in braking?[/quote]

[quote]Any idea how much lighter that is than the drum setup?[/quote]

I don't know on both counts. I haven't had the car on the road since I did it due to suspension problems (I towed it to the Bash). I tossed all the drum hardware before I installed all this, but I can weigh it when I take it all back off in a few weeks to finish up the detail work.

[quote]I believe the 3rd part number would go from the bracket that holds the two cables in place to the ebrake handle. It is all mounted under the car on the neon, so I know it'll hold up to severe weather.

Why did you choose to mount it all inside the car? Just curious! Looks pretty pimp though.[/quote]

Hmmm. The car I stripped had all the hardware inside the car and the bracket to hold the cables was spot welded to the floor. It was a sedan. That might be the reason for three different cables.

[quote]What diameter are the rotors, they look about the same as my fronts.... 8)

Well done, and an excellent writeup Cahill. Also, this should me about the same thing to do on a beretta "tubular" axle right?

I may do this, but I won't worry about the E-brake though, don't need that junk.[/quote]

They are 10.67” (270mm). This will work on the Beretta axle. It is about 3/16" (each side) wider than the drum setup, so depending on tire width, there may be some rubbing since the Beretta axle is wider already.

[quote]Good Job Cahilj

I would probably recommend to have the old neon bearing holes filled somehow with weld or something steal for strength of the bracket... but thats my opinion. But we all know what everyone says about opinions...

They're just like assholes,... everybody has one. :wink:[/quote]

I thought about that too. The bracket is almost 1/4" thick throughout and the weakest spot is the "arms" where the caliper bolts to. Since there really wasn't any machining done near the arm ends, I didn't think it would be too much of a problem. You're right about opinions :lol:

[quote]Hey Cahil,

Why not just use the Neon spindle? I thought the lug pattern is the same?[/quote]

That was my original plan. A custom spindle that fit in the factory hole in our axle, and used the four bearing bolt holes. I was even going to have the shop make a few extra sets to sell since it would almost be a direct bolt on then. It fell through when the steel stock didn't show up in time.

A pic of the idea-
[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/IMG_0104_2.jpg[/img∞]

[quote]James i have a question.
In your pics it doesnt look like the hub clears the rotor (looks like its about even with it) Is this because you spaced the rotor away from the bearing? Or is the rotor really that much thicker than the drum? A concern of mine is keeping the hub exposed so the wheel can be properly seated.[/quote]

The Cav hub sticks out .250" through the rotor without the spacers installed. It sticks out .160" with them in, but that dimension can change depending on what you do for spacing.

[quote]A question for you dodge guys out there...does the PT Cruiser use the same rear brake setup as a Neon? When I do a search on car-part.com for rear brake parts, I get results for the PT Cruiser also... :-?[/quote]

The PT Cruiser probably uses the same caliper and rotor as the Neon (as well as pretty much every Mopar with rear discs- Stratus, LeBaron, Daytona, etc), but when I did the research, the only thing the bracket was available on was the Neon, so I have no clue if a PT caliper bracket will work.

[quote]Could this setup work for a 3rd gen was the same rear setup for the drum brakes used for 88-03?[/quote]

Yes. There are several people doing the swap right now.

[quote]Do you still have to machine the big circle in the middle if you dont have ABS? I noticed the ABS sensor was in the middle, I dont have ABS andI dont think I need to machine the middle out, but its been a while since I've seen back there so I dont know.
Also whats the smallest rim that could fit on the rear with these rotors? I have 14's for the winter and I want to be sure they still fit, if not screw it I'm still doing it anyway cause it looks so cool, lol
I was going to look into this using rear discs from a shadow or something but just never got around to doing the research.[/quote]

I guess you really don't have to machine out the center hole, but it makes life easier. If you didn't, you would have to get dead-on measurements for the four bolt holes.

[quote]Do you think it would be possible to space the bearing away from the caliper bracket instead of just spacing the rotor out? This would keep the hub the full .250" outside the rotor.[/quote]

I thought about doing that at first. All you would really need to do is get some longer bolts, since the caliper bracket is already thicker than the Cav backing plate, and you're left with maybe 1-2 threads showing when its tightened down. I kind of ditched the idea because it was hard enough getting the bolts through the bearing, bracket, and axle (due to having the park brake stuff on there at the same time) let alone lining four things up to do it. I'm going to have a .125 (maybe different, I have to get a good measurement of the rotor/dust shield interference) spacer made for the outside of the bearing with the five stud holes and the hub hole in it.

[quote]Just curious as to what the four bolts holding the bracket on the neon were? anything special, i was at a yard today and saw a neon with the setup and was curious what i would need to bring to remove them myself. it looks safe to say that those 4 bolts or whatever are all that hold the setup on the car is this correct? [/quote]

They're just a bolt in a threaded hole since the Neon uses a stub-type axle. You'll need a 15mm socket to remove them. They may be pretty stubborn, but they will come out.

[quote]Any pics of the ebrake set up behind the rotor? I'm curious as to how it is set up. [/quote]

It looks exactly like a drum brake. Hold down pins, return springs, star wheels, etc. The only difference is the lack of a wheel cylinder and the addition of a lever to apply the shoes.

[quote] Hi James. Hi friends.

After a little research in my notes I found the info that I have been asking you; sorry I was lazy at the moment when I ask here in this thread.

95-97 Neon rear disc's:
Rear Rotor: 270mm OD, 5x100mm bolt pattern
Rear Piston / Cylinder diameter: 34mm
Rear Lining: Bendix 7805
master Cylinder Bore: 22.2mm

98-99 Neon rear disc's:
Rear Rotor: 270mm OD, 5x100mm bolt pattern
Rear Piston / Cylinder diameter: 34mm
Rear Lining: BBA 2006
master Cylinder Bore: 22.2mm

[img]http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/423000-423999/423223_90_full.jpg[/img∞]

According to my calculations (3rd gen J-bodies uses a 7/8” master cylinder, 7/8” wheel cylinders and 4 points / wheels ABS & proportioning system) stock j-body brakes will work really cute with stock Neon’s rear discs system. Check out this pages.

Jbodies stock brakes calculation:
[img]http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/423000-423999/423223_86_full.jpg[/img∞]

[img]http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/423000-423999/423223_87_full.jpg[/img∞]

Jbodies with neon rear disc brakes:
[img]http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/423000-423999/423223_88_full.jpg[/img∞]

[img]http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/423000-423999/423223_89_full.jpg[/img∞]

These worksheets are only a roughly estimation, with some % of error in the results, but good enough to make you an idea how the stuff will work.

I hope that info help you.[/quote]

[quote]
[quote]
[quote]One question.... will 95 - 05 drilled rotors fit? Do I have to get a set for dodge neon only?[/quote]

I assume you are talking about Cavy rotors?? No they wont work. The neon rear disks have a drum inside them for the Ebrake.[/quote]

Ah interesting... thanks for the input! I hope the rear rotors from Neon isnt a big difference on the looks. But its gonna look better than the drums![/quote]

[quote]So you are saying that the center hole is just opened up, and is still centered on the bracket (compared to the original hole), and the four other holes are then added in at a precise location (determined by the J-body axle). What we are really locating off of is the center hole then. Am I getting this right?[/quote]

Yes. As long as the center hole is centered, the rotor will be centered in relation to where it would be on the Neon. I hope that doesn't sound too confusing.

[quote]The four other holes are set so that the caliper is riding "level" to the ground (the same distance from the ground on both sides), correct?[/quote]

I think I understand what you're asking. You're asking if the two horizontal centerlines (the top hole and the bottom holes) need to be parallel to the ground right? No. Not necessarily. Mine were actually a bit off since the part of the bracket casting where the park brake cable sticks out would have hit the top of the bearing flange on the axle. He did the center hole, then set the brakcet on the axle where it would clear the top of the flange, and marked the four holes. As long as the center hole is centered, you can rotate the bracket in any direction however far you want and the rotor will still be centered.

[quote]So, when doing this, I may have to do the center hole to the J's specs, then position the mount on my axle so it's set "level" to get my other hole locations. [/quote]

Yup. When was looking at Whitecavys car at the Bash, the top of the bearing flange looks to be in roughly the same position relative to the axle as on my car. I had to do a tiny bit of grinding on the top of the flange to get the center holes to line up, but it wasn't too much.

I hope that explains it a little better. I will be pulling it all apart this afternoon or tomorrow, and I will take some more pics with some dimensions and some details of where the holes go.

[quote] just curious as what your reason for spacing it out was? did it rub on something? I havnt messed with it much yet since Ive just been working on getting the other side on which it is, but the rotor spins free.

Is it something simple i just havnt noticed yet that is the reason it needs spaced?[/quote]

The rotor hits the backing plate/dust shield by maybe .010" or less when the wheel is torqued down. Its just enough to drag. You won't see/hear/smell/feel it until you get the car on the road. I drove it around the driveway with no issues, when I got it out on the road, it smelled/felt like the park brake was dragging.

Now that I've thought about it some more, I think you should try it first to see if it drags. I had everything powdercoated, so it may just have been the coating that was too thick (pictures tomorrow). I never got a chance to measure the overall distance from the inside of the bracket to the outer face of the bearing with either setup. If anything, it can't be more than .020 or .030 difference.

Here are the 3rd gen pics-

Grinding needed on the top of the axle-
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/axlegrind.jpg[/IMG∞]

Bracket after drilling/grinding-
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/bracket.jpg[/IMG∞]

Bracket/caliper/rotor mounted-
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/cahilj/reardiscclean.jpg[/IMG∞]

[quote] ok can we somehow get 2 types of walkthroughs here one for gen 2 and one for gen 3...[/quote]

[quote] As far as a walk through for 3rd gens there really isnt anything different then the 2nd gen except for maybe the ebrake but I havnt gone into that yet and I just plan to you the stock J cables Im sure I can make them work with the Neon Ebrake[/quote]

[quote] is there anything you didnt do for the 3rd generation or was there any extra stuff you had to do?[/quote]

[quote] Not a thing was different save for the fact that I just wiggled the stock J line into place on the caliper and used a threading adapter to thread it into the Caliper instead of going through the trouble of new brake lines, although thats not a bad idea for me was just a cost I didnt see as neccesary mostly cause it was still the metal line.[/quote]

About the only differences between 2nd a 3rd gens would be the brake plumbing and e brake system. Everything else is the same.

[quote]I got a couple of questions now that it's been done on the 2nd and 3rd gen.

1. Do you guys use an adapter and use the j-body brake line or the neon one?[/quote]

I used all custom stuff. See page one for links to hardware. This is the most decision making you have, since there are tons of ways to go about it.

[quote]2. Is the spacer absolutely necessary? If so how thick does it have to be?[/quote]

Yes. The rotor will rub the backing plate/dust shield without one. The washers I used were just basic 1/2" washers, they measure .090" thick. I still have to get a good measurement of rotor to shield interference. I'm guessing its somewhere around .030-.050".

[quote]3. Just to make sure:
[QUOTe]The centerline of the existing Neon large hole and centerline of the large Cavalier hole NEED to be the same[/quote]

Thanks[/quote]

Yup. Everything else is based off that hole so it needs to be dead nuts.

[quote] Does anyone know if the neon rear disk setup and the intrepids are the same? I can't find any neons with the rear disks, but there are plenty of intrepids around here where I live.[/quote]

The caliper bracket is different, but the caliper and rotor are the same. I have no idea if an Intrepid bracket will work.

[quote]Also, the j-body uses the Torx-55 to hold the hub on, what's on the Neon so I'm prepared for it?[/quote]

The hub is on there with a big (maybe 28 or 30mm) nut. I'm pretty sure the bracket is four 15mm bolts. I know theres no Torx anywhere though. You should be safe with all metric tools. Its been a while since I took it all apart.

[quote]the suspension setup on the 2gens are different no?[/quote]


Yes, the axle/spring/shock is, but the bearings/brakes are exactly the same, front and rear (92+).

[quote] i cant find any blasted neon sports around here is there anything else? ive found plenty of regular neons but no sports.[/quote]

The Highlines came with discs also. As long as it has discs, its all the same. The Neon is the only car that specific caliper bracket came on. One from another car may fit/work, but I can't give you any ideas, since I never measured any others myself.

[quote]And another thing does it matter if the donor Neon has
ABS or not?[/quote]

No. All the hardware is the same between ABS and non ABS cars. The sensor is screwed in from the rear of the caliper bracket, and the reluctor wheel is on the outside of the bearing. Similar to the stock front ABS sensors on a J body.

[quote]Hey, Update on the brake drag. I grabbed some pressure gauges and found we do indeed have 10psi residual valves in our Gen 3's , don't know about Gen 2's tho. I went to some local speed shops and they said just like (Pushrods & Nitrous!), 2psi for disc and 10psi for drum. Anyway, I found those damn residual pressure valves......there hiding along the hard bend line just below the drivers side rear bench seat. The interesting thing about this is even if you change the MC you will still have the 10psi in the back since this valve has nothing to do with MC. I've been doing alot of sleuthing around asking questions at speed shops around here and they all said the residual valves can't be run in the MC. Actualy, many cars don't have residual pressure valves and there are only needed for performance brake applications to keep the fluid from rushing back to the MC during decompression.....so I was surprized when I found them on my cavi. I installed the neon calipers and brought them up to pressure while off the car...( a piece of wood substituted for the pads and rotor)....when I let off the brake and removed the wood, much to my surprize the caliper piston was sliding out surprizingly fast. Almost too much to hold back by hand...proved that without replacing the valves, brake drag would be certain. Not much given the emense pressure required to stop, but drag none-the-less.
Anyway, I bought some Disc brake 2psi valves and replaced them and all is good, no slide on the repeat test.

Cahill....check for the valves[/quote]

2nd gens don't have them. It wouldn't be a problem for me anyways since I ran all new brake lines and switched from split diagonal to split F/R.

All brake systems have an inherent amount of residual pressure, or every time you stepped on the brake, the pedal would travel quite a bit before the pads/shoes actually applied (because of the air gap between them and the rotor/drum). This is the first I've ever heard of resiudal pressure valves only being needed in hi performance apps. I'm guessing the shops you went to were more for sport compacts? (which would stand to reason, since many 50s, 60s and 70s cars, especially ones with front drums, came with them from the factory, and I wouldn't expect a Gen X builder to know that :) )

[quote]Hello,

OK....I got all the info and pics. This weekend I even got the ebrake hardware on the 3rd gen using stock cables.

Start from the top:

Heres the pic of the stock RPV(residual pressure valves):
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/residualpressurevalves.jpg[/img∞]

I used 2 psi Wilwood valves, part number: 260-1874
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/wilwoodresidualpresurevalve.jpg[/img∞]


You can see from the pic that it has fittings on both ends. This fitting is a #3 flare to 1/8" NPT adapter and is an XRP part number 981603. [img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp981603.jpg[/img∞]

The straight end fits goes into the RPV(pipe thread) and the flare end is the brake line thread.

Now you have a RPV with standard Male brake line fittings on both ends. Only one problem.....the cars original RPVs are female fittings. Now many of you are thinking why didn't I just search XRP's site and find a 1/8" NPT to Female #3AN fitting. Although this might exist....the stock RPVs have two different size male fittings on both sides of the brake line. The upstream is probably 7/16" and the downstream is 5/16 I do believe. I found it easier to cut the original fittings off and buy a pipe flaring tool from Harbor Freight Tools....my favorite store!!!

[url=http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=40878]Flaring∞ tool[/url]

This kit also comes with a pipe cutter that works great that isn't shown in the kit.

Once you have the original fittings cut each side, next you side on the brake line XRP's part number 981803 (#3AN female nut):
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp981803.jpg[/img∞]

Now slide onto the brake line XRP part number 981903 (Nut sleeve)
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp981903.jpg[/img∞]

This nut sleeve will snug up to the end of the brake line once the end of it is flared. Then the female nut will slide back to the end and get caught on the ridge of the nut sleeve. Now you should have the assembled brake line with the RPV installed like the picture seen earlier above:
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/wilwoodresidualpresurevalve.jpg[/img∞]

Now this assembly is a little shorter than the stock valves however you can pull some slack from the rear end to make up the difference pretty easily. I went on step further and just replaced the line all the back from the RPVs.

Heres some pics of the valves installed:
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/wilwoodpressurevalvesinstalled2.jpg[/img∞]
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/wilwoodpressurevalvesinstalled.jpg[/img∞]

All those wet spots are brake fluid in case anyone is wondering why I roll with a leaking fuel tank.

I will continue this post to include all the brake line mods....as if this post isn't long yet.

Heres a pic of the full assembled brake line before I installed it.
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/brakelinerightside2.jpg[/img∞]

I installed a piece of crapy line on the other end of the RPV...ignore this...that line is just a representation of the stock line that I will bolt the RPV too.

Also....on that note...I would like to say...don’t be afraid to practice with the pipe flange tool...you aren't crimping the fittings onto the line, just sliding them on and the bolts holds everything tight. So you can practice seating the nut sleeves and nuts on the brake line all you want without consuming the fittings.

O.K., In this picture you can see in the top right my coil of brake line. Then to the left is the tube cutter and flaring tool stuff. Also there is my pipe bender to the right of the flaring tool stuff. Below that is the caliper that once looked clean and bright red.

Now on the caliper I used a 7/16" nut to #3AN Male flare nut, XRP part number 402833
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp402833.jpg[/img∞]

This allows the stainless steel braided brake line to be installed, XPR part number 630036
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp630036.jpg[/img∞]

I used 36" flexible lines to replace the brake line all the way from the start of the stock rubber flex line into the caliper. 30" would be more appropriate but whatever.

Next on the other end of the flex hose you see a union flare nut, XRP Part number 981503
[img]http://virtualinformation.com/cavalier/xrp981503.jpg[/img∞]
Then from here I used another nut sleeve and flare nut.

Here's the BOM for the whole brake line job, both sides:
All XRP parts.

(6) 981803
(6) 981903
(4) 981603
(2) 981503
(2) 630036
(2) 402833
(2) Wilwood 2psi RPVs PN: 260-1874

P.S. All of these pics I found online from a site and they look like they have been squished. So when you find the parts in your hand don't think they aren't right just cause they don't look exactly the same.

I will post later about the brake job on the gen3. This post is long enough.[/quote]

[quote]this is some fascinating info on those RPV's. I've never heard of them before.

James and other non gay, I mean non 3rd gen owners... (much love guys heh)... Are our RPV's perhaps built into the master cylinder?

I know that a 3rd gen master cylinder with ABS is comparable to ours, but, is it the EXACT SAME master cylinder? Is it possible our years have this RPV funciton in the master, and in the 3rd gen they made them external?

Curiosity has me here..[/quote]

[quote]RPV's are totally optional on disc or drum brakes...many production cars won't have them. There basically just a brake fluid stop for the brake lines, this ensures the caliper remains close to the pads at all times and creates a more consistent brake pedal feel for the driver whenever they're applied. Basically reduces the chances of ever a spongy pedal feel on first applying them. I've done a little research on RPVs and MCs or more to the point RPVs inside MCs and I have found a somewhat good reason to believe that just by visual inspection you can tell if you have them.
Heres an image of a 71 super beetle's MC, you see the brake line going into the larger bolt type thing. That is a RPV, I wouldn't imagine to find RPVs inside the actual MC.
But you can always try my 2x4 piece of wood stuck in the caliper trick as I explained earlier in the thread.
[img]http://vwtrendsweb.com/tech/0311vwt_projvw02_z.jpg[/img∞]

Heres a quote off of Wilwood's RPV package:

A residual pressure valve is used when a master cylinder is mounted equal to or below the horizontal plane of the calipers or drum brake wheel cylinders. This valve prevents fluid flow-back to the master cylinder reservoir which can cause excessive brake travel or "pumping" of the pedal to engage brakes.[/quote]

I've sometimes wondered why cars have RPVs when they don't really need it. The J body MC is well above the 4 corners, so its a mystery to me what the engineers were thinking.

The 3rd gen MC is the same part as the 2nd gen MC (with the exception of the reservoir- for that matter, I'm not 100% sure of the difference between the ABS and non ABS MCs. They both have the same port layout and use the same reservoir. It must be a valving difference).

I've seen some cars (mostly 70's, similar to the VW picture) with an external residual pressure valve/proportioning unit attached to the MC. I don't know if any cars ever had a RPV built into the MC or not.
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